Jonathan's Stand

Let's discuss about the first three chapters of the manga...

What kind of stand do you think Jonathan would've had?

Similar to "The World"
95
58%
Similar to "Star Platinum"
11
7%
Similar to "Hermit Purple"
42
26%
Similar to "Crazy Diamond"
4
2%
Similar to "Gold Experience"
11
7%
 
Total votes: 163
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Dreadfore » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:43 am

I think The World belongs to Dio and the Hermit Purple like Stand belongs to Jonathan.

After all,
even High Voltage Dio had The World and there was no hint that he was fused with Johnny in any way.


Why can Dio break the one Stand per person rule? Because he is two people.

When Dio came back to take Jonathan's body, he suggests Jonathan would live on with him. Maybe he wasn't being figurative. Maybe he was being literal. Even when Jotaro had defeated DIO and destroyed his brain, the motionless body still had to be destroyed by the sun so it is not as if a vampire's body cannot live without its head, albeit in an unconscious state.

Of course, this technically implies he can incorporate the Stand powers of limitless people into his own body.

Wait, is that how his plan for Heaven worked?
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Joker » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:57 am

The only problem with using High Voltage is that Johnny had Tusk not Hermit purple.

Besides the theory that Dio's World has the Joestar stand abilities wouldn't technically break the one stand per person if it's the abilities and not the stands themselves.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Joker » Tue May 24, 2016 8:15 am

Bumping this thread as my discussion with Asden in a different thread caused me to realise that since watching DavidPro's anime adaptation of Stardust Crusaders, my opinion on this topic has completely changed.

Okay, when Joseph explains the concept he says that Stands are born from one's lifeforce (or "energy" in crunchyroll subs) right? DIO stole Jonathan's body and then gained his Stand using said body.

However, I believe The World is firmly DIO's Stand because we also know that the form Stands take are influenced by the user's psyche, for example Kira wanting to destroy all evidence of his crimes got Killer Queen. Therefore since Jonathan was long since dead, The World most likely doesn't take any influence from him but DIO, seeing as "High Voltage" was a thing, DIO can certainly manifest it without Jonathan.

But since The World was created using Jonathan's energy, it created a link to his descendants which subsequently awakened their Stands. Said descendants also gained abilities similar to those demonstrated by The World (Time Stop and Spirit Photos). Now whether you take that to mean Joseph and Jotaro got their abilities from DIO or he from them is up to you. I like to think it's the latter since that really goes well with the symbolism of the Tarot cards.

Also worthy of consideration is when DIO met Pucci and his miraculous healing of Pucci's club foot. Whether that was supposed to be a Stand ability (remember Josuke is alive at this point) or a previously unseen vampire ability is left to the viewer's imagination.

And I've been talking for way too long over mere conjecture. Still, it is fascinating to speculate even if we never get a solid answer.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Asden » Tue May 24, 2016 12:04 pm

Joker wrote:Bumping this thread as my discussion with Asden in a different thread caused me to realise that since watching DavidPro's anime adaptation of Stardust Crusaders, my opinion on this topic has completely changed.

Okay, when Joseph explains the concept he says that Stands are born from one's lifeforce (or "energy" in crunchyroll subs) right? DIO stole Jonathan's body and then gained his Stand using said body.

However, I believe The World is firmly DIO's Stand because we also know that the form Stands take are influenced by the user's psyche, for example Kira wanting to destroy all evidence of his crimes got Killer Queen. Therefore since Jonathan was long since dead, The World most likely doesn't take any influence from him but DIO, seeing as "High Voltage" was a thing, DIO can certainly manifest it without Jonathan.

But since The World was created using Jonathan's energy, it created a link to his descendants which subsequently awakened their Stands. Said descendants also gained abilities similar to those demonstrated by The World (Time Stop and Spirit Photos). Now whether you take that to mean Joseph and Jotaro got their abilities from DIO or he from them is up to you. I like to think it's the latter since that really goes well with the symbolism of the Tarot cards.

Also worthy of consideration is when DIO met Pucci and his miraculous healing of Pucci's club foot. Whether that was supposed to be a Stand ability (remember Josuke is alive at this point) or a previously unseen vampire ability is left to the viewer's imagination.

And I've been talking for way too long over mere conjecture. Still, it is fascinating to speculate even if we never get a solid answer.


So you mean that The World is capable of both Time Stop and Spirit Photos because of the link between DIO and Jonathan? And that Jotaro and Joseph's Stands influenced The World's? This was not my point of the discussion in the other thread, but I would not exactly believe that.

Not because I have any particular proof of it, but I think that Jonathan's spirit was still alive when DIO was pierced with the arrow, since DIO still had problems to completely control Jonathan's body, thus the Hermit Purple proxy. And when he awakened his own Stand, because of Jonathan's spirit, all the currently alive Joestars received a Stand, which one way or another reflect The World and Jonathan's Hamon powers, either in design or capabilities. The fact that this unnamed Stands remains unused must be that DIO did not have perfect control over it, and could only develop The World because that was in fact his Stand.

What I was talking about was from a more...narrative? point of view. What I meant was that Jonathan's Stand was just made so DIO could react to Joseph's own Spirit Photos, not that, if he ever had a Stand in Phantom Blood, it would be Hermit Purple. I believe that Araki used it only as a small plot device, just like he used Hermit Purple to find out that DIO was hiding in Egypt, and then left it up for interpretation since he wouldn't have had DIO with two Stands, that would make him even more unbeatable.

If the story of PB went the same way it did originally, but with Stands, I'm sure it would work like you say, Joseph and Jotaro's Stands influencing two powers for The World, instead of DIO having both his and Jonathan's Stand. Of course, this would also require a bit of a retouch in both Josuke and Giorno's story, but that's somewhat unrelated to the discussion.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Orthio » Tue May 24, 2016 1:08 pm

I've read that The World was originally supposed to contain every stand ability but that Araki had to simmer this down as the series went on. Knowing Dio, if he owned Josuke's ability he would've abused it wherever possible so I'm not convinced that Pucci's foot was cured this way - more likely it's related to Dio's vamperism, similar to the healing he provided to vanilla ice after lopping his head off.

The Steel Ball Run extra chapter is a really bad source for rules on stands but it does state that stands are inherited, which feels like a slightly different twist to it being nothing but a life-force. I kind of like the idea of stand-power being a partly paternal blood inheritance thing and partly spirit pass-down thing myself.

From this inheritance rule I take it that stands aren't an entity tied purely to one person and their personality (which is such an awesome, endearing idea), but can be split across multiple users (hermit purple and those twelve cowboys in sbr for instance) or passed completely from one person to another. It's still interesting that the Joestars seem to have such a strong ability to pass down a stand from one generation to another, and that despite this, even strong-willed members of the family like Jolyne don't automatically receive one.

On the main topic, I really love the idea of Jonathan owning the World, but since this can't happen it'd be great for him to have some insanely in-your-face, direct stand. Maybe something kind of mystically connected to boxing and general self-sacrifice. I have no idea.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Joker » Tue May 24, 2016 2:24 pm

Orthio wrote:I've read that The World was originally supposed to contain every stand ability but that Araki had to simmer this down as the series went on. Knowing Dio, if he owned Josuke's ability he would've abused it wherever possible so I'm not convinced that Pucci's foot was cured this way - more likely it's related to Dio's vamperism, similar to the healing he provided to vanilla ice after lopping his head off.

In real life yes, that is the reason why DIO used Hermit Purple. About Vanilla Ice, that was done via resurrecting him as a vampire through giving Ice DIO's blood. Therefore the Pucci thing kinda hangs awkwardly as he's never done that before.

Orthio wrote:The Steel Ball Run extra chapter is a really bad source for rules on stands but it does state that stands are inherited, which feels like a slightly different twist to it being nothing but a life-force. I kind of like the idea of stand-power being a partly paternal blood inheritance thing and partly spirit pass-down thing myself.

I like to equate it to spiders who typically aren't taught how to build webs but do it out of instinct. It's behaviour that's passed down through genes.

Orthio wrote:From this inheritance rule I take it that stands aren't an entity tied purely to one person and their personality (which is such an awesome, endearing idea), but can be split across multiple users (hermit purple and those twelve cowboys in sbr for instance) or passed completely from one person to another. It's still interesting that the Joestars seem to have such a strong ability to pass down a stand from one generation to another, and that despite this, even strong-willed members of the family like Jolyne don't automatically receive one.
Hermit Purple and Tatoo You! are special exceptions and Stands can't generally be passed down aside from the ability to summon your own. As for the Joestar family, I assume that it's Jotaro didn't get his naturally that it didn't pass down to Jolyne. Prior to the Stand arrow being used, the number of natural Stand users was very small.

Orthio wrote:On the main topic, I really love the idea of Jonathan owning the World, but since this can't happen it'd be great for him to have some insanely in-your-face, direct stand. Maybe something kind of mystically connected to boxing and general self-sacrifice. I have no idea.

Indeed a boxer like Stand would be awesome.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Asden » Tue May 24, 2016 2:33 pm

Orthio wrote:I've read that The World was originally supposed to contain every stand ability but that Araki had to simmer this down as the series went on. Knowing Dio, if he owned Josuke's ability he would've abused it wherever possible so I'm not convinced that Pucci's foot was cured this way - more likely it's related to Dio's vamperism, similar to the healing he provided to vanilla ice after lopping his head off.

The Steel Ball Run extra chapter is a really bad source for rules on stands but it does state that stands are inherited, which feels like a slightly different twist to it being nothing but a life-force. I kind of like the idea of stand-power being a partly paternal blood inheritance thing and partly spirit pass-down thing myself.

From this inheritance rule I take it that stands aren't an entity tied purely to one person and their personality (which is such an awesome, endearing idea), but can be split across multiple users (hermit purple and those twelve cowboys in sbr for instance) or passed completely from one person to another. It's still interesting that the Joestars seem to have such a strong ability to pass down a stand from one generation to another, and that despite this, even strong-willed members of the family like Jolyne don't automatically receive one.

On the main topic, I really love the idea of Jonathan owning the World, but since this can't happen it'd be great for him to have some insanely in-your-face, direct stand. Maybe something kind of mystically connected to boxing and general self-sacrifice. I have no idea.


Because Joestars aren't naturally born Stand users. Joseph, Holly, Jotaro, Josuke and Giorno were alive when DIO was pierced with the arrow, and Jolyne is the only Joestar without a Stand because she was born after that. Avdol, Polnareff and Kakyoin are natural Stand users, although Araki never related that to inheritance, it's likely that if they had sons, they would be Stand users.

Also, I strongly believe that Jonathan would have had Star Platinum if he ever had a Stand, that's why I think it'd be amusing what Jotaro would have considering Araki developed the variety of Stands much further at that point.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby jda95 » Wed May 25, 2016 12:21 am

The pseudo-Hermit Purple has essentially been confirmed to be Jonathan's, so I don't really get why there's always debate about this. I still think it's fun to speculate about what he might have had if he was alive though.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby blind51de » Wed May 25, 2016 7:03 am

jda95 wrote:The pseudo-Hermit Purple has essentially been confirmed to be Jonathan's, so I don't really get why there's always debate about this. I still think it's fun to speculate about what he might have had if he was alive though.

Something to do with plants. They're recurring imagery when it comes to the Joestars.
It's always possible that Dio's psychic influence was what gave Jotaro/Josuke/Giorno punchghosts.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Nabu-san » Wed May 25, 2016 7:17 am

jda95 wrote:The pseudo-Hermit Purple has essentially been confirmed to be Jonathan's, so I don't really get why there's always debate about this. I still think it's fun to speculate about what he might have had if he was alive though.


where was it confirmed? like, very precisely, with photos, because kaiser asked me for the source but I can't find that on the artbooks and assimilated books.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby jda95 » Wed May 25, 2016 7:25 am

Nabu-san wrote:
jda95 wrote:The pseudo-Hermit Purple has essentially been confirmed to be Jonathan's, so I don't really get why there's always debate about this. I still think it's fun to speculate about what he might have had if he was alive though.


where was it confirmed? like, very precisely, with photos, because kaiser asked me for the source but I can't find that on the artbooks and assimilated books.


I don't own the book but it's in JoJo-A-Go-Go, I've seen the quote floating around a lot in Japanese discussions so I never really doubted its veracity.

Someone who owns it please take a photo of page 33 and put this to rest. :kakyoinc
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Nabu-san » Wed May 25, 2016 7:33 am

jda95 wrote:
Nabu-san wrote:
jda95 wrote:The pseudo-Hermit Purple has essentially been confirmed to be Jonathan's, so I don't really get why there's always debate about this. I still think it's fun to speculate about what he might have had if he was alive though.


where was it confirmed? like, very precisely, with photos, because kaiser asked me for the source but I can't find that on the artbooks and assimilated books.


I don't own the book but it's in JoJo-A-Go-Go, I've seen the quote floating around a lot in Japanese discussions so I never really doubted its veracity.

Someone who owns it please take a photo of page 33 and put this to rest. :kakyoinc


But page 33 of the stand booklet is for The Fool, there's no mention at all of a second hermit purple. did they say it was in the ARAKI special booklet?
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Asden » Wed May 25, 2016 12:23 pm

http://jojo.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Unna ... .27s_Stand

That's exactly what the wiki is for, guys. It quotes the JoJo-A-GoGo page that jda95 mentions, it doesn't provide an image so we can only trust this translation, unless someone can find it.
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Re: Jonathan's Stand

Postby Nabu-san » Wed May 25, 2016 12:32 pm

Asden wrote:http://jojo.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Unnamed_Stands#Jonathan.27s_Stand

That's exactly what the wiki is for, guys. It quotes the JoJo-A-GoGo page that jda95 mentions, it doesn't provide an image so we can only trust this translation, unless someone can find it.


That's what we're trying to confirm at the wiki, but unless there's a true cobnfirmation and not only an internal link, I cannot say it is valid.
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